A letter from David and my Reply; 2 Bible Studies in 1.
Salvation by Baptism and Sabbath Day or 7th Day Adventist

 

Hi Everyone, and especially David,

Well, it looks as though we disagree again, David.. I have been to your site and signed your guest book. As I did with Lee, I will drop down and answer your letter.. For those of you who have just joined the Jim Keeling Ministries, I have placed David's letter in the green text and my answers in this brown Italicized text, Also, I've put the Scriptures in Red intro and verses in Blue with some highlighted. And for you who are babes in Christ, get ready for some excitement because there are some steak and tatters in the lesson found here... I pray that the Holy Spirit will be our guide each of us in all Biblical  truth and understanding... Amen!    Well Glory! Let's get started!

Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 8:17 AM Subject:
Re: Answer to Lee. took 6 hours to prepare, and about the same amount of time for this one....hmmmm

David Wrote:
 

Well, Jim, It's me again!

Unfortunately you have, in your effort to correct Lee, made some very fundamental errors yourself! (Is this good for God's TRUTH?)

Well, Hey, if you want to say that quoting God's scripture is in error, I don't know If I will be able to help you or not.. In the word of God is truth. No errors, no lies, only truth.. Maybe some misunderstandings from unknowledgeable man's wisdom which is nothing more than foolishness with God...

I Corinthians 3: 18, 20

[18] Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
[19] For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
[20] And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

 

You quite correctly cited the murderer on the cross as one who was promised a place in Christ's Kingdom in the New Testament. I also immediately thought of him when I read Lee's original letter.

HOWEVER, (and further to my earlier note) you have fallen into the Satanic trap of believing that what is printed in just about every Bible translation is accurate.   IT IS NOT!!

 
eeeek! 1611 King James Version is not in error! Those 3 words are correct.. It is Not! If a translation differs from the 1611 KJV it must be in error.. There can only be one truth! Any other is a perversion... It is like foreigners living in America and won't learn the English language. If you your gonna live here lean the language, otherwise your still a foreigner. If your gonna get wisdom and understanding from the truths of the Bible. Ask the Holy Spirit to open your eyes...Learn of Him!
 

What you need to be aware of is that the original Koine Greek (in which Luke's gospel was written) did not have any punctuation marks as we have today. The CORRECT translation should NOT have a comma following the word "thee." Instead of reading, And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. it should read, And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise. Do you see the difference?

My Answer??? I most certainly do see a difference.. According to my (Barry's Interlinear Greek-English New Testament with a Greek-English lexicon and New Testament Synonyms) the absolute translation, and this is word for word and in that order, as written and goes like this..

Luke 23: 43 Barry's Interlinear

"And said to him Jesus, Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in Paradise."
If I had Greek lettering on my keyboard I would have written the Hebrew and Greek words directly above the English words as it is in Barry's Lexicon

Oh, there was no comma after To-day, in either the original or KJV translations. Looks as though your books missed the boat and need some punctuation lessons...

And according to the King James version, 1611 (and not some perverted version as such as you must be reading) it is translated and reads as such;

Luke 23: 43; KJV

"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."
Paradise here is Sheol and is the same place that Lazarus, Abraham and all the old Testament saints were residing until the resurrection and ascension of Jesus to Heaven. After Christ preaches to the saints, it is at this time Christ takes all of the Old Testament Saints with Him to Heaven... And they are coming back to get me if I am still breathing... If I should die, Well, I will be coming back with Jesus...

Well Glory, Won't that be something?? Yea Just think David... If I die before you and Jesus comes while your living I'll be coming after y..., Hey,


By the way, have you ever repented of your sins and ask Jesus to save you miserable soul??? Do you believe in the gospel, ( that is the death, burial, and resurrection) of Jesus Christ? Do you believe in the virgin birth? Do you believe in His pure Blood Sacrifice on that old rugged cross for your sins?? Have you ask Him to forgive these sins and ask Him to come into your heart to live???? Have you accepted Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God, as your Lord and Saviour???? Have you confessed Him with your mouth?? David, you can write all the books in the world and belong to every perverted church known to man. You can crawl across the USA on broken glass but if you can't answer YES to those questions I just ask, you are in more trouble than a false religion....
 

There is absolutely NO WAY that the murdered could have been in paradise with (or without) Jesus on the day that Jesus spoke those words.

 
eeeeek! why?     The same day Jesus spoke those words, both He and the malefactors died... Jesus descended into hell, (sheol) and preached to the Old Testament Saints... the saved malefactor went to hell, (sheol) and listened to Jesus preaching along beside Lazarus... Oh by the way,, The other malefactor who refused Jesus also went to hell (Hades) on the other side of that great gulf separating the one hell, (Hades from the other paradise hell, (sheol) ( and heard the words preached by Jesus along with the rich man of Luke 16: 19,

 

Turn to John 20:17. There you will see where Jesus said to Mary Magdalene (outside the empty tomb THREE days later), "Do not hold onto me, for I have not yet returned to the Father."

 

hmmmm holding on to and touching must mean the same in your Bible.. No wonder your so screwed up in your thinking.. Does your Bible version leave out the virgin birth of Christ and the word blood too??? Just wondering. I was also wondering if Jesus drove a Caddy or a Chevy when he RETURNED to the Father... Sorry about the sarcastic remark but these off the wall translations just slay me...
 

This very clearly shows that Jesus was not in paradise on the day He was crucified doesn't it?

 
opps another boo boo. Jesus was in paradise because he preached to the saints there..

I Peter 3: 18

[18] For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
[19] By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

The prison referred to here is Hell, (Sheol)= The Paradise side of Hell.. Hades being the tormenting side...
Luke 16: 19, 31 and you can look that one up....


As the correctly punctuated English translation that I have given above clearly shows, what Jesus ACTUALLY said to the murderer was, yes, he WOULD be with Him in paradise and that Jesus said so to him TODAY (that is, the day of the crucifixion).


First let me say this. The original point was to Lee, that the malefactor was saved with out going into the baptismal waters and baptism doesn't save but that Belief in Christ does. It wasn't whether that malefactor went to Heaven that day or is still in Sheol. (Hell) But for your misconstrued understanding I will give you a foot note from my Scofield Reference Bible... And by the way, Scofield was a very learned and noted Bible Scholar which neither you nor I may lay claim to..

Concerning John 20: 17

" Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not: for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethern, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

Scofield Notes;

Cf Mt. 28: 9 "and they came and held him by his feet." A contradiction has been supposed. Three views are held:
(1)
That Jesus speaks to Mary as the High Priest fulfilling the day of atonement (Lev. 16). Having accomplished the sacrifice, He was on His way to present the sacred blood in heaven, and that, between the meeting with Mary in the garden and the meeting of
Mt. 28; 9, He had so ascended and returned: a view in harmony with types...
(2) That Mary Magdalene, knowing as yet only Christ after the flesh
(2 Cor. 5: 15-17), and having found her Beloved, sought only to hold Him so; while He, about to assume a new relation to His disciples in ascension, gently teaches Mary that now she must not seek to hold Him in the earth, but rather become His messenger of the new Joy.
(3) That He merely meant: "Do not detain me now; I am not yet ascended; you will see me again; run rather to my brethren" etc.

 

If you read your Bible carefully you will realise that NO ONE is yet in paradise with Jesus. THAT is why He is returning! To resurrect the faithful. Rather than go on at length here.  Jim, may I suggest that you read chapter 16 of my book "God's deal With YOU" (at the beloved King Ministries' web site...

 

honk!!! hello where have you been??? And no thank you, I do not wish to read your book... As screwed up as you are, I don't need that aggravation. Just another book of a perversion of man's thoughts... My word, aren't there enough of them already??? Satan has lined the shelves with some truths, impregnated by the ignorance of man filling the bulk of the remaining pages...

Well, since I haven't written any book filled with my wisdom, LOL, I will just have to rely on the Holy Word of God and the understanding as He ( the Holy Spirit) gives me unction.. and I will not fall into your seduction.

I John 2: 26, 28

[26] These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
[27] But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie,
and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
[28] And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

Now that we have established that my understanding is as one anointed, let's proceed.

I am going to make a wild guess that you meant paradise to be heaven. (written in the above chapter) I colored it in Bold black underline so as not to confuse my readers....

I am not sorry to inform you but my dad and my 2 grandpas and a whole lot of other children of God are looking down now FROM HEAVEN with tears in their eyes from the stupidity of unbelief and mis-understanding..

Hebrews 12: 1

[1] Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
"So great a cloud of witnesses" happen to be the saved souls looking and compassing about us... Ok, you said, and I hate to even repeat it, but you said, that; "Christ  was returning to resurrect the faithful",,,, Opps again... He is returning but He is not going to touch earth at this time... He is however going to rapture, ( I might add here I know that the word rapture is not in the Bible,, but caught up is) his children, both the dead bodies and the living and together we shall meet Him in the air. At this time we shall receive our new, glorious, uncorruptable bodies... Well, Glory!!!

I Thessalonians 4: 13, 18

[13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. God doesn't want you to be ignorant, no matter how hard you try, David. For there is hope for His children but no hope for the world...
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Open your eyes right here, David, and read this vs. 14 once again. If you believe, (do you?) that Jesus died and rose again, ( do you believe this?) get ready to shout: EVEN SO THEM (we're talking about souls here) (saved people's souls) which, SLEEP IN JESUS (these are the dead in Christ, ie. my dad and my grandpa's and all the saved who have died) WILL GOD BRING WITH HIM." God couldn't bring something or someone, even a soul, if He didn't at first have it in His possession... Think on this and let it soak in....
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive (this will be me if I don't die first) and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Praise God!

I just can't stop here... Let's look at

I Corinthians 15: 51, 53

[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. Does that mean we shall live forever and forever?? You Betcha!
[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,
Death is swallowed up in victory. ref. Isa. 25,:8
[55] O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
[56] The sting of death is sin;
and the strength of sin is the law

 

www. ) This explains the state of the dead in much more detail than I can here in the time I have available. (In fact, based on a number of scripturally erroneous statements you have made over the months in your word of the day, may I respectfully suggest that you read the whole book?)

I, of course, have NO DESIRE to be seen as critical or offensive - especially by one who clearly WANTS to serve our Creator and Savior - and ask you to read Ezekiel 3:17-21 before doing anything else that I have suggested.


Okey dokey,   funny you should use this passage of scripture... I preached on this several years ago so let me put it on here where everyone might see it. (smile)

Ezekiel 3: 16, 21 No blood on my hands; Not after sharing this with you...

[16] And it came to pass at the end of seven days, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, hummmm and just what comes after the end of seven days? Could it be the word of the Lord came on the 1st day of the week...Isn't that interesting.. No wonder Paul the apostle wrote in
Acts 20: 7
"
[7] And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, WOW! here is an apostle holding 'ecclesia' (church) Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight."
WOW! again,, How would you like to have your services last till midnight?? David, this church service was held on Sunday... It wasn't a 7th Advent Day, Saturday service. But on the 1st day, Sunday; Well, Glory! And Sunday service instead of a Sabbath day... Well, what do you know?? God's first church was held on the first day of the week by the 12 apostles... The chosen of Jesus... Well Glory!!!

[17] Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
[18] When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
[19] Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
[20] Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
[21] Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

 

This explains very clearly why I am pointing out the error you have made. To be honest Jim, I have quite enough sins of my own to bear responsibility
One thing for sure, If ignorance is a sin, we, with a lot of others are in trouble...
for without being held responsible for anyone else's! (I am being totally selfish here!! <smile>)
 
I haven't been selfish with you.. (smile) I have relayed every truth the Holy Spirit has given to me at this time... I have reread this several times and The Holy Ghost even gave me a couple extra scriptures... Those were thrown in for good measure... I said I would drop a false religion like a 'hot potato;'
Well David, if there ever was one, (false religion) you’re in it....

It isn't a shame to get caught up in a false religion because Satan has made so many of them but to hold on to a dying golden calf sinking into the pits of hell is worse than a shame.... Drop that potato, David, Pull you book from the shelves and seek the mind of God and ask Him to show you the truth and where to find a Ecclesia where you may have fellowship with believers in the One, True, and Living God...


God bless you as you (I hope) learn His TRUTHS.
All I can say to this is 'ditto'

In Jesus' love,

David

 

All I can say is, thank you, David... I left off your signature so as not to embarrass you... Me, I am an open book and don't mind being embarrassed... After reading my thought for several months I guess that I am not a very good preacher or teacher at all... But I didn't write a book either... I just quoted from the Bible, but then not many listened to Jesus either so what should I expect... (smile) I will just praise Jesus and look for His coming... Well Glory!!

Ps. If your gonna stay in the Old Testament category let me know and I will help you find some really nice lambs and doves... Oh, I have a neighbor who raises calves... If your gonna stay under the law you might as well get back into the blood sacrifices...

Maybe it is time to go back to school and learn from a school master... (smile)

NO! It (law) is no longer needed now that I have been justified by faith...

Gal 3: 22, 26

[22] But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
[23] But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[24] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
[26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

 

I pray that all who read this can honestly say I am a child of God...
Well, Glory!

 

Ps. just  some notes;

Sab·bath (   http://www.atomica.com/lookup2/pronkey.html    )

http://www.atomica.com

The seventh day of the week, Saturday, observed as the day of rest and worship by the Jews and some Christian sects. The first day of the week, Sunday, observed as the day of rest and worship by most Christians.

Sabbath [Heb., = repose], last day of the week (Saturday), observed as a holy day of rest by the Jews. Early Christians observed the first day of the week in commemoration of the Resurrection; hence Sunday became the Christian Sabbath.

The Concise Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia Copyright © 1999, Columbia University Press. Licensed from Columbia University Press. All rights reserved.  http://www.cc.columbia.edu/cu/cup/  

Atomica is a great dictionary etc. I recommend it highly..

 

Once again I Thank YOU for visiting with me... If you don't know my Jesus as your personal Saviour but would like to, why not, in your own words, ask Jesus to forgive you of your sins, acknowledge that you believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, suffered and gave his life on that old cross, shedding His pure blood as the ultimate sacrifice for you, and that on the third day arose from the grave and is on the right hand of God the Father in heaven both now and forever more. And then ask Jesus to come into your heart and save your soul, writing your name in the Lambs Book of Life.. If you have accepted Jesus today, that means that your are saved and born again. You have been adopted into the family of God just like me... I am then not only your friend but your brother in Christ. Please write and let me know of that decision so that I might pray and rejoice with you…

May your day be Blessed as we grow in faith and understanding,
 

Jim
 


 

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This page was made by Jim Keeling Ministries on July 10, 2006